Interviewer: So I'm here on May 2 with Undergraduate #3. Do you consent to this interview being recorded?
Undergraduate #3: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And then do you consent to having the transcript of this interview being posted and made available online?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah.
Interviewer: Awesome. Okay, so we can go ahead and get started. So the first question that I have for you is, what organizations are you involved with on campus?
Undergraduate #3: Regarding DEI or just in general?
Interviewer: It can be all of them. Honestly, this is kind of for just historical documentation purposes. So it's just really anything that you want to say or talk about.
Undergraduate #3: I'm part of the Texas Speech Team, which is recognized through the Moody College of Communications. I work at Texas Global, Global Customized Programs and Innovation. I was a part of the Latinx Leadership Institute last semester, which was a part of the Multicultural Engagement Center, and some of the programs that they had, I was also part of Semillas, which is a part of the Latino Studies Department. And Horns Helping Horns; that's part of the Student Services Building and like that stuff. And I think that's it.
Interviewer: So, it doesn't have to be for all of them. But are there things that have changed about like, these organizations in specific or your role within the organization since the implementation of SB-17 in January?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, so well starting with the most obvious one with the Latinx Leadership Institute, because the Multicultural Engagement Center was disbanded, that's not even happening anymore. And when I was a part of it the semester before that, we had known that SB-17 was a thing and that it was happening and going to be implemented in January. But you know, a lot of us didn't really know what the implementation was going to look like. And, you know, eventually, we understood, like in January, that we wouldn't be able to have it anymore. So there isn't a Latinx Leadership Institute, as far as I know now? But then, I mean, all the layoffs earlier, well, I guess last month now. Yeah, that was definitely a shock to a lot of people. But yeah, I mean, I would say that was definitely the biggest ones. And with Horns Helping Horns like, that's also I mean, it wasn't like necessarily a DEI program within itself. But a lot of what it does is help people from all kinds of marginalized groups and it's a school sponsored org. And we get scholarships, and we do community service, and all that kinds of stuff. And some of the stuff that like we used to be able to talk about in like, the monthly meetings and stuff like that has changed. Also, and you know, we just have to be more careful about that. But Horns Helping Horns already wasn't necessarily classified as DEI, even though it kind of is DEI. So I'm very grateful that that wasn't one of the programs that was affected, because it's one of the most important programs I'm a part of on campus, for sure.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. This isn't something that I have listed. But could you expand a little bit more about what the Latinx Leadership Institute did while it was still functioning?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, so you had to apply for it the semester before, and then you would be a part of it. And so then two senior members of some Latinx orgs would lead this and basically, every single week, we would get together, it was a group of 15 of us and there would be snacks and that kind of stuff. But every week was focused on talking about a part, like a problem with the Latino community. And what we can do and, you know, make ourselves leaders to be able to fix it. So, we had really serious conversations about stuff that is super real to me as a Latina on campus, and just to everybody that was there. But you know, like immigration, accessibility, we talked about the court cases for affirmative action, and all these structural problems that we know exist, and it's like, we need to start considering other approaches. And so every week we develop edthose skills and talked through it from people who have been through similar experiences who want to put themselves in that leadership position. I feel like a common thread throughout everybody that was a part of that program, was that whether- like I didn't grow up in Texas, so I wasn't around a lot of Latinos growing up, even though my parents were Mexican immigrants. But even the people that grew up in Texas, we've never seen people that look like us and come from similar backgrounds have those leadership positions. So I think that's why it was so great that two senior members of Latinx orgs would lead it because, we're putting ourselves in the position to be there at some point, but we just never had that representation really to start. Like, I never had any non white teachers before coming to UT.
Interviewer: Wow. That's, that's kind of crazy.
Undergraduate #3: Well, I'm from Nebraska and I did my freshman year at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois. So yeah, that was a major PWI (Predominately White Institution). And Nebraska, obviously, it's not very diverse either.
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you for that. So kind of maybe a little bit on what you were talking about with the changes that you experienced with Horns Helping Horns? Are there any new kind of specific challenges that you're encountering with it? And like the work that you do with the university since implementation of the bill?
Undergraduate #3: I mean, with the Multicultural Engagement Center closing, that was really crazy. Because, you know, that obviously affected a lot of the graduation ceremonies, which like I'm graduating next year, and I couldn't imagine- I don't know, not having a Latinx Grad at an HSI (Hispanic Serving Institution), like, that makes no sense to me. So you know, now having the Latinx Leadership Institute disbanded is obviously a disservice to anybody who wants to have a safe space to talk about these real problems for our communities. Texas Speech has always been kind of a route to advocacy, and those kinds of careers. And so I think that what we do on our team is more important now than ever. Because we're able to really do a lot of deep research on problems that we know affect us, or people we love, and marginalized groups, and are able to share that at the national level. Because, we go to two major national tournaments, and we have won three times in a row. So, we know what we're talking about, and we know how to say it well, and I'm glad that there's still a group like that, that still is able to foster those skills of talking about things that matter. Texas Global, I wouldn't say has been, at least from my point of view hasn't been really affected. But I definitely have a skewed perception of Texas Global because the department that I work for, doesn't work with students at UT at all. We bring international students and young professionals to Austin and do the state sponsored department- Which I guess that's kind of confusing now that we talked about it. So, what my department does is the State Department funds, all kinds of these programs to build relationships with people that are in our generation, and like trying to, you know, whether that's entrepreneurial, blah, blah, blah. So those state department things are funded, and we run it through UT. So they come to UT to learn about American culture and do like the fun touristy stuff here, and then they go to the White House, and they meet everybody, and it's cool for them. And but that hasn't been affected. But that's funded through the State Department, federally not through the state, which is, obviously, what the issue is at hand. Yeah, I mean, Horns Helping Horns, I'm sure that they probably had to rebrand some stuff on their website, but I applied when I transferred here, which was two years ago. So I have not looked at what the logistics of that are.
Interviewer: Oh, yeah, that's fine. Thank you. That was still very helpful. I don't know, gaining perspective on all this, this kind of, I don't know, kind of a point of this, I guess. So the next question that I have is this, I keep saying I need to reword this question. And then I don't. So the question is, how do you understand SB-17 in how it's been implemented on campus? So kind of like, what did you understand the bill to cover? And if you've read it, was it easy to understand what it was going to cover? And if you haven't read it, that's totally fine. But just like even in the general context of what the university has told us, what did you understand that it would cover?
Undergraduate #3: Well a lot of what I do at Texas Speech also analyzing stuff like this. So I I think that I have a very macro perspective of what's going on. Obviously, when I heard that SB-17 was happening in the news, well, actually, I had watched the one representative because he was, Brian...
Interviewer: Oh, is it Brandon Creighton?
Undergraduate #3: Yes. Brandon Creighton, I watched when he was like, "Texas schools need to comply," And so, obviously, there's the threat of losing state funding if you don't implement SB-17. So it's not inherently UT, but it is UT affiliated, you know what I mean? And so I was nervous, way back in September, October; whenever this happened. I was nervous when I first heard about it, especially being a first-gen Latina. I transfered from a PWI to an HSI for a reason, you know, and so it was shocking to me that in my third semester, the whole affirmative action thing happened; DEI is getting attacked in Texas. And it just, it really makes no sense to me, because people would rather believe that we're in a post racialized society than acknowledge the structural issues that continue to perpetuate a lot of the things that maybe were explicit at first. So I knew what it intended to do. And I think that that's what we're seeing now. But I did have hope that it wasn't fully going to be like that, because that's when I heard that come January, you know, like, the GSC (Gender and Sexuality Center) would be changing to the Women's Center, like they were just going to be rebranding, basically. Because, I think that deep down, people know that DEI isn't bad. It's not racist to white people, because that's not even possible. But instead, it's building a safe space in places where we don't have people that look like us and have been here before, for the most part. But I was really disappointed when in April, when they just fired like, 60 people. I don't fully know what exactly happened, but from working in Texas Global and just being around all these different organizations- and my major is Latino studies, so this is also something that my department professors were really worried about. From what I understood, it was that they all got on a Zoom call, and they were told that they had to pack it all up, and they had to leave, you know, that same day. And regardless, if there were going to be that extensive of layoffs, there should have been something done to allow people to prepare for that, because especially living in a place like Austin, you can't just lose your job one day, and be okay for the rest of the month. You know what I'm saying? So I just thought that was, it was really cruel. And I understand that the university has to comply with state law. But I still think that there were better ways that that could have been handled.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I had something that I was going to ask, but it slipped my mind. Oh, I haven't asked this to anybody, but it would be nice to have it confirmed. I've really only seen from the screenshots of the email that was sent out to everybody who was under the MEC. Did you guys know that it was gonna be shut down ahead of time, or was it kind of just that email that announced it?
Undergraduate #3: No, no. So yeah, I got that email, too. And from what I remember, which like, again, college student with a lot of emails, but I don't ever remember seeing anything saying that we were warned. It very much was like, "The MEC's closed. Good luck."
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. That's what I had gathered from just seeing the general stuff about it. That it wasn't anything that was announced ahead of time. I don't know.
Undergraduate #3: It was a same day change, similar to the layoffs. Because they happened at the same time, I believe.
Interviewer: Really?
Undergraduate #3: Because I think the MEC was still open. Yeah, for a few months, at the beginning of the semester.
Interviewer: That's interesting. Okay. Thank you for that clarification, that actually is really, really helpful. So kind of in the same line of that, so they decided to close the DCCE, which was formerly the DDCE, very recently with the layoffs and everything. So kind of what do you think that this means for our community on campus? And why do you think that this division was included in the university's compliance, even after all the changes that they made?
Undergraduate #3: I'm trying to think of when I had read SB-17. That's what I'm saying, it was vague enough that some powerful people could basically say how they wanted it to play out, and that's what was going to happen. And I think that SB-17 is just a way of soft launching the fact that people don't think that we need to, you know, work on equity any longer. And so when we talk about diversity and inclusion, oftentimes that means providing resources to ensure that people are all at the same starting point, you know. Because it's true, especially being in a higher-ed space, it's so important to work hard, and to care about what you do. But there are so many circumstances that are just out of our control simply because of who we are. And so I think that's essentially what Texas is trying to push back on: not meeting people where they're at. And this whole, "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps," mentality. And so I'm not surprised that it got shut down. Because there are only so many words you can change without changing the mission, you know, and I think that the department was really set on not changing their mission of continuing to help meet students that need it where they're at. And I don't think that the Texas government would have ever let that fly. So I'm disappointed but not surprised.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Um, let me see. So, okay, before any of the changes were implemented, you know, with the bill, how did you feel about the efforts to foster inclusivity on campus?
Undergraduate #3: I mean, I don't think they were perfect, but I think that they were so much better than other places. Especially coming from a PWI to Texas, I had never been around so many people of color in my life, than the first time I was on UT's campus. Growing up Nebraska, as poor immigrants and going to a PWI in the middle of Illinois; there were very little circumstances where there were people that looked like me around that weren't my family. So, I think that part of it has been a lot of the student community itself fostering these diverse and inclusive environments, like one of my biggest social outlets is the Texas Speech team. And, it's not perfect in diversity, but it's pretty good. And you know, especially like in that kind of organization, we regularly talk about diversity and inclusion. And then every single organization I've been a part of the leadership always makes a note about diversity and inclusion, and making sure everybody feels like they have a space wherever we're at. So I think that we're a lot better than a lot of other places, but it still wasn't perfect, you know. But now, it's definitely been stifled and stomped to the ground.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, I do think you have a really unique perspective with coming from out of the state, because a lot of the people that I've talked to are from Texas, so kind of how things are here, we kind of it's like, all that they know, really, especially coming from a place that is significantly less diverse than Texas is, is really, I think that's a really unique perspective to offer on the situation.
Undergraduate #3: I mean, like, the reason I had reached out in the first place, was that- I don't know, I feel like, even though I've worked really hard in my life and my resume- she does what she needs to do- I still feel like there's so much of my college experience has been shaped by DEI and affirmative action. I fully believe that, you know, the transfer acceptance rate from out of state to Texas is ridiculous. And so, the fact that I even am blessed enough to go to this university, that I'm able to afford to go to because of the speech team; it's been an interesting journey. And I'm sad that a lot of the things that have helped me get to where I'm at, won't be around for other people that need it.
Interviewer: My next question was actually: Were any UT sponsored DEI resources a part of your decision to come to UT? Which is kind of something that you've touched on.
Undergraduate #3: I mean 100% it was; it really only took one semester at Bradley University for me to know that was not the place for me. And I was a part of their Diversity and Inclusion Office program. So, I was a part of the Diversity in STEM program and the Office of Diversity and Inclusion Scholars Program. So with the STEM and Scholars programs, they were really pulling the very small population of POCs in the university, and so, it was never- I never was worried for a second that they weren't doing everything that they could and that they were going to be shut down. Granted, that was a private university as well. But, you know, even with the little support and community that they had, they still were trying their best. And so it's crazy that Texas, you know, is a huge, prestigious public university, and really can't get it together. But I had chosen to transfer to Texas because I knew that I wasn't going to continue to grow as a person, and understand why I've even had the opportunities that I've had, unless I was around less white people if I'm being really real, and you get less white people through diversity and inclusion. And I'm saying that in the sense that you have to meet people where they're at and when you don't, it's very obvious who is able to be in those spaces and who isn't.
Interviewer: Next question I have is kind of a two-parter. So you have talked about this a little bit. But the first part is, in your own opinion, why do you think SB-17 was enacted?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, I mean, I think that everybody wants to trick themselves into believing that we're in a post-racialized society. I think that a lot of the conservative Texas ideology is, "We don't see color. So we don't have to acknowledge that there used to be problems with color before." You know, and I think the key word is "used to," because it's still there. It makes sense that a lot of people that are first-gen, and a lot of people that are low income, that get the Pell Grant, that do all these things, have similar backgrounds and similar identities. So, to try to just push past, what could have been bad in the past, just makes absolutely no sense to me. So I think that SB-17 was enacted to kill that conversation, because they didn't want to do anything that maybe was even more controversial, like they saw the backlash with, CRT and Florida and stuff. And so, you know, how do you even stop conversations about CRT before they even start? Stop diversity and inclusion. So yeah, I think that it's just a very sneaky way of discriminating against people who deserve the opportunity to be in an institution like Texas.
Interviewer: Yeah, and then so the next part of this is also kind of something you mentioned on a little bit. So Brandon Creighton's whole reasoning behind the bill is that he wants to bring merit, the idea of merit, back to Texas universities for admissions decisions and stuff. Do you think that this in any way has any value or will be successful in any other aspect?
Undergraduate #3: We definitely did talk about this before, when I said that Texas wants to bring back the "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps," method. But this is not the Industrial Revolution anymore, first of all. I mean, I think that he, unfortunately, has a very popular opinion of that, and we saw that with Edward Blum. So, this is going back to the affirmative action case. So the person that basically was the mastermind behind that whole thing, he had first tried to do that in Texas, with Katy... something. And it didn't work because she was white trying to fight that she didn't get into UT because she was white, and that they let Latinos, and they shouldn't have. Then he changed the ideology to use Asian students instead. So then Asian students attacking DEI works, kind of, and I think that's exactly what people like Creighton are trying to do. He wants to believe that if you work hard enough, you can have the exact same accomplishments across the board. And that's just unfortunately not the case. And I think that this is something that I've definitely reflected on; one of my majors is Latino Studies, and we talk about these kinds of things a lot. I just think that the more that we continue to push the idea that you need to be exceptional to be heard to POC students, it's just going to lead to more and more burnout. It's seriously exhausting to feel like you have to pull yourself in a million directions to try to be enough; when you have a million more responsibilities than some other people your age. It's kind of going to do exactly what they want it to, where some people are not going to be able to do that and, you know, are personally going to choose to drop out of universities or not even go in the first place. Then the other half is explicitly what they're trying to do; to ensure that people don't even get the chance to enroll at all. I think that, looking back to what my experiences were in Nebraska, I grew up in a small town, but I had a good resume, and I was valedictorian, and all of these things. I still think that even as hard as I worked; even though I accomplished literally everything that I could there, I still think that that would never match up to somebody who grew up in like the suburbs of Dallas and had all of these opportunities and tutors and institutes. And it's not my fault that my parents were immigrants, and they didn't know how to even access those kinds of things in the first place. So yeah, I'm so disappointed. I'm so disappointed, and just sad.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Um, next, the next question that I have is kind of like, summing up all of the things that we've said generally is, what does DEI mean to you, and do you think that it's important?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, I think that DEI is the reason I'm in college. And I don't know, that sounds kind of corny to say, but I really don't think that I would be where I'm at today, if I had not been introduced to these kinds of resources that have like, helped be a raft in what feels like the hardest years of my life. For a lot of people, college is fun, and it has been fun for me too. But that hasn't meant that I haven't experienced so much hardship in the past few years. And I think that without these organizations that have taught me to express what I'm going through, and solve it for the next person, to continue to pursue an education, to continue to help people; I think that without DEI, it's a disservice to the conversation in every single classroom. I think that having people from different backgrounds and different experiences and different identities, is what builds wise people. It's one thing to be able to memorize all these facts and spit them back out. But, to be able to actually analyze how the world around you impacts people that are not like you should be a top priority for universities. So, the fact that they're just trying to shut it down, because they're scared to talk about the real problems is embarrassing, especially for an institution like the University of Texas. As grateful as I am to go here, I think that there needs to be some change, because UT is going to look very different if there aren't different people around, you know?
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, that kind of tends to be the general sentiment that I'm hearing from the people that I'm talking to about this, that we're going to see a change and kind of, I guess, like the kinds of people that are here, even like students and faculty in the next couple of years if these things, I guess, continue. Yeah, yeah. So the last question I have for you, is kind of the crux of my project, because I'm looking at this kind of in a historical perspective. Do you think this event is important to UT's history?
Undergraduate #3: Absolutely. I think that so many things that have happened this year are going to go down in the history books, and SB-17 is definitely going to be one of them. I mean, it impacts people's not only educational aspirations, but also quality of life on campus. It's definitely going to deter people from choosing to go here in the future. And so I think that, you know, despite the press that SB-17 has received, I think that the students have done a pretty good job of standing up for what we think is right as well. And you know, whether that actually makes it to the people that we need, is a whole other conversation. But I think that Texas should think really hard about being on the right side of history. And they need to do that soon.
Interviewer: Awesome. So that was all the questions that I have for you. Is there anything else that you wanted to like, comment on or off top your head?
Undergraduate #3: I have one more thing that is important to this whole conversation. I completely forgot to say until now. When I transferred to UT, it was really hard because, obviously immigrant parents, they're going through their whole documentation process. So, they were nervous to travel to Texas, so I moved by myself, have been financially independent since I was 18. So, adulting is really hard when you're 18-19 years old, and transferring to Texas; driving like 14 hours by myself, it was crazy! I had a lot going on. And, you know, I had something bad happen to me within like two months of being in school. And so I went to the CMHC (Counciling and Mental Health Center), because I'd always done therapy as well. I hadn't thought about getting a therapist in Texas yet, but I knew that I needed to talk to somebody about what was going on with my life. And I was shocked! I was shocked when I got asked what kind of therapists I wanted, because all of my therapists had always been white women. And I felt like for the most part, one of them was able to really help me, and then the other people absolutely had no idea where I was coming from. A lot of the issues that have happened in my life are, you know, systematic, cultural issues that a lot of other people face, and we need to talk about. And so, I was nervous, it kind of felt like Build A Bear, but for a therapist. I kind of just clicked POC, whatever gender identity, sexual identity, and all that stuff. I ended up getting paired with this, also daughter of immigrants, Asian therapist, and she was seriously the best therapist I've ever had in my life, hands down. Very much saved my life my sophomore year, and then has given me the tools to continue to grow as a person and grow from what I've been through. I'm super grateful for her. She also led, I'm not gonna say her name, but a group therapy group that was called duty bound, for daughters of immigrants. It was a phenomenal therapy group. And she was so helpful. It was nice that she fostered community in something that she knew that is really hard to talk about. Like, I have not met very many daughters of immigrants in my life before coming to Texas. So I'm grateful that there was that space for us to talk about a lot of the stuff that we had gone through. I remember I was like, going through a random rough patch, and she asked me to schedule therapy. So, I was going to her therapy session, and she asked me to come not to her office, but to a different office that she had on campus. And that's when I found out that she was also part of the Asian American Studies Department; she did a bunch of work there. That's when she told me that she was actually leaving, because of SB-17; because she wouldn't be able to do things like the therapy group that I just talked about. The way that we got matched was very much like DEI inspired, and so she said that she didn't want to be here anymore, if she couldn't do the work that she set out to do when she got her education in the first place. I think that that makes so much sense, you know, but I was absolutely devastated that she was leaving because she was seriously the best therapist I've ever had in my life. I'm so sad that UT lost her as a person because I just can't imagine how much she helped other people when I only got to know her for a little over a year. So that was also really sad about DEI, and I miss her and I hope that she's doing great.
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you very much for sharing that that's so it's just so like, I don't know, disheartening is like a very, I think surface level word to use. I don't know. It's like kind of like a domino effect on people because I guess they wouldn't think about a faculty member leaving due to the bill impacting like, specific students, but like, that is something that's yeah, it builds up I guess. I'll stop the recording now.
Undergraduate #3: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And then do you consent to having the transcript of this interview being posted and made available online?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah.
Interviewer: Awesome. Okay, so we can go ahead and get started. So the first question that I have for you is, what organizations are you involved with on campus?
Undergraduate #3: Regarding DEI or just in general?
Interviewer: It can be all of them. Honestly, this is kind of for just historical documentation purposes. So it's just really anything that you want to say or talk about.
Undergraduate #3: I'm part of the Texas Speech Team, which is recognized through the Moody College of Communications. I work at Texas Global, Global Customized Programs and Innovation. I was a part of the Latinx Leadership Institute last semester, which was a part of the Multicultural Engagement Center, and some of the programs that they had, I was also part of Semillas, which is a part of the Latino Studies Department. And Horns Helping Horns; that's part of the Student Services Building and like that stuff. And I think that's it.
Interviewer: So, it doesn't have to be for all of them. But are there things that have changed about like, these organizations in specific or your role within the organization since the implementation of SB-17 in January?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, so well starting with the most obvious one with the Latinx Leadership Institute, because the Multicultural Engagement Center was disbanded, that's not even happening anymore. And when I was a part of it the semester before that, we had known that SB-17 was a thing and that it was happening and going to be implemented in January. But you know, a lot of us didn't really know what the implementation was going to look like. And, you know, eventually, we understood, like in January, that we wouldn't be able to have it anymore. So there isn't a Latinx Leadership Institute, as far as I know now? But then, I mean, all the layoffs earlier, well, I guess last month now. Yeah, that was definitely a shock to a lot of people. But yeah, I mean, I would say that was definitely the biggest ones. And with Horns Helping Horns like, that's also I mean, it wasn't like necessarily a DEI program within itself. But a lot of what it does is help people from all kinds of marginalized groups and it's a school sponsored org. And we get scholarships, and we do community service, and all that kinds of stuff. And some of the stuff that like we used to be able to talk about in like, the monthly meetings and stuff like that has changed. Also, and you know, we just have to be more careful about that. But Horns Helping Horns already wasn't necessarily classified as DEI, even though it kind of is DEI. So I'm very grateful that that wasn't one of the programs that was affected, because it's one of the most important programs I'm a part of on campus, for sure.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. This isn't something that I have listed. But could you expand a little bit more about what the Latinx Leadership Institute did while it was still functioning?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, so you had to apply for it the semester before, and then you would be a part of it. And so then two senior members of some Latinx orgs would lead this and basically, every single week, we would get together, it was a group of 15 of us and there would be snacks and that kind of stuff. But every week was focused on talking about a part, like a problem with the Latino community. And what we can do and, you know, make ourselves leaders to be able to fix it. So, we had really serious conversations about stuff that is super real to me as a Latina on campus, and just to everybody that was there. But you know, like immigration, accessibility, we talked about the court cases for affirmative action, and all these structural problems that we know exist, and it's like, we need to start considering other approaches. And so every week we develop edthose skills and talked through it from people who have been through similar experiences who want to put themselves in that leadership position. I feel like a common thread throughout everybody that was a part of that program, was that whether- like I didn't grow up in Texas, so I wasn't around a lot of Latinos growing up, even though my parents were Mexican immigrants. But even the people that grew up in Texas, we've never seen people that look like us and come from similar backgrounds have those leadership positions. So I think that's why it was so great that two senior members of Latinx orgs would lead it because, we're putting ourselves in the position to be there at some point, but we just never had that representation really to start. Like, I never had any non white teachers before coming to UT.
Interviewer: Wow. That's, that's kind of crazy.
Undergraduate #3: Well, I'm from Nebraska and I did my freshman year at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois. So yeah, that was a major PWI (Predominately White Institution). And Nebraska, obviously, it's not very diverse either.
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you for that. So kind of maybe a little bit on what you were talking about with the changes that you experienced with Horns Helping Horns? Are there any new kind of specific challenges that you're encountering with it? And like the work that you do with the university since implementation of the bill?
Undergraduate #3: I mean, with the Multicultural Engagement Center closing, that was really crazy. Because, you know, that obviously affected a lot of the graduation ceremonies, which like I'm graduating next year, and I couldn't imagine- I don't know, not having a Latinx Grad at an HSI (Hispanic Serving Institution), like, that makes no sense to me. So you know, now having the Latinx Leadership Institute disbanded is obviously a disservice to anybody who wants to have a safe space to talk about these real problems for our communities. Texas Speech has always been kind of a route to advocacy, and those kinds of careers. And so I think that what we do on our team is more important now than ever. Because we're able to really do a lot of deep research on problems that we know affect us, or people we love, and marginalized groups, and are able to share that at the national level. Because, we go to two major national tournaments, and we have won three times in a row. So, we know what we're talking about, and we know how to say it well, and I'm glad that there's still a group like that, that still is able to foster those skills of talking about things that matter. Texas Global, I wouldn't say has been, at least from my point of view hasn't been really affected. But I definitely have a skewed perception of Texas Global because the department that I work for, doesn't work with students at UT at all. We bring international students and young professionals to Austin and do the state sponsored department- Which I guess that's kind of confusing now that we talked about it. So, what my department does is the State Department funds, all kinds of these programs to build relationships with people that are in our generation, and like trying to, you know, whether that's entrepreneurial, blah, blah, blah. So those state department things are funded, and we run it through UT. So they come to UT to learn about American culture and do like the fun touristy stuff here, and then they go to the White House, and they meet everybody, and it's cool for them. And but that hasn't been affected. But that's funded through the State Department, federally not through the state, which is, obviously, what the issue is at hand. Yeah, I mean, Horns Helping Horns, I'm sure that they probably had to rebrand some stuff on their website, but I applied when I transferred here, which was two years ago. So I have not looked at what the logistics of that are.
Interviewer: Oh, yeah, that's fine. Thank you. That was still very helpful. I don't know, gaining perspective on all this, this kind of, I don't know, kind of a point of this, I guess. So the next question that I have is this, I keep saying I need to reword this question. And then I don't. So the question is, how do you understand SB-17 in how it's been implemented on campus? So kind of like, what did you understand the bill to cover? And if you've read it, was it easy to understand what it was going to cover? And if you haven't read it, that's totally fine. But just like even in the general context of what the university has told us, what did you understand that it would cover?
Undergraduate #3: Well a lot of what I do at Texas Speech also analyzing stuff like this. So I I think that I have a very macro perspective of what's going on. Obviously, when I heard that SB-17 was happening in the news, well, actually, I had watched the one representative because he was, Brian...
Interviewer: Oh, is it Brandon Creighton?
Undergraduate #3: Yes. Brandon Creighton, I watched when he was like, "Texas schools need to comply," And so, obviously, there's the threat of losing state funding if you don't implement SB-17. So it's not inherently UT, but it is UT affiliated, you know what I mean? And so I was nervous, way back in September, October; whenever this happened. I was nervous when I first heard about it, especially being a first-gen Latina. I transfered from a PWI to an HSI for a reason, you know, and so it was shocking to me that in my third semester, the whole affirmative action thing happened; DEI is getting attacked in Texas. And it just, it really makes no sense to me, because people would rather believe that we're in a post racialized society than acknowledge the structural issues that continue to perpetuate a lot of the things that maybe were explicit at first. So I knew what it intended to do. And I think that that's what we're seeing now. But I did have hope that it wasn't fully going to be like that, because that's when I heard that come January, you know, like, the GSC (Gender and Sexuality Center) would be changing to the Women's Center, like they were just going to be rebranding, basically. Because, I think that deep down, people know that DEI isn't bad. It's not racist to white people, because that's not even possible. But instead, it's building a safe space in places where we don't have people that look like us and have been here before, for the most part. But I was really disappointed when in April, when they just fired like, 60 people. I don't fully know what exactly happened, but from working in Texas Global and just being around all these different organizations- and my major is Latino studies, so this is also something that my department professors were really worried about. From what I understood, it was that they all got on a Zoom call, and they were told that they had to pack it all up, and they had to leave, you know, that same day. And regardless, if there were going to be that extensive of layoffs, there should have been something done to allow people to prepare for that, because especially living in a place like Austin, you can't just lose your job one day, and be okay for the rest of the month. You know what I'm saying? So I just thought that was, it was really cruel. And I understand that the university has to comply with state law. But I still think that there were better ways that that could have been handled.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I had something that I was going to ask, but it slipped my mind. Oh, I haven't asked this to anybody, but it would be nice to have it confirmed. I've really only seen from the screenshots of the email that was sent out to everybody who was under the MEC. Did you guys know that it was gonna be shut down ahead of time, or was it kind of just that email that announced it?
Undergraduate #3: No, no. So yeah, I got that email, too. And from what I remember, which like, again, college student with a lot of emails, but I don't ever remember seeing anything saying that we were warned. It very much was like, "The MEC's closed. Good luck."
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. That's what I had gathered from just seeing the general stuff about it. That it wasn't anything that was announced ahead of time. I don't know.
Undergraduate #3: It was a same day change, similar to the layoffs. Because they happened at the same time, I believe.
Interviewer: Really?
Undergraduate #3: Because I think the MEC was still open. Yeah, for a few months, at the beginning of the semester.
Interviewer: That's interesting. Okay. Thank you for that clarification, that actually is really, really helpful. So kind of in the same line of that, so they decided to close the DCCE, which was formerly the DDCE, very recently with the layoffs and everything. So kind of what do you think that this means for our community on campus? And why do you think that this division was included in the university's compliance, even after all the changes that they made?
Undergraduate #3: I'm trying to think of when I had read SB-17. That's what I'm saying, it was vague enough that some powerful people could basically say how they wanted it to play out, and that's what was going to happen. And I think that SB-17 is just a way of soft launching the fact that people don't think that we need to, you know, work on equity any longer. And so when we talk about diversity and inclusion, oftentimes that means providing resources to ensure that people are all at the same starting point, you know. Because it's true, especially being in a higher-ed space, it's so important to work hard, and to care about what you do. But there are so many circumstances that are just out of our control simply because of who we are. And so I think that's essentially what Texas is trying to push back on: not meeting people where they're at. And this whole, "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps," mentality. And so I'm not surprised that it got shut down. Because there are only so many words you can change without changing the mission, you know, and I think that the department was really set on not changing their mission of continuing to help meet students that need it where they're at. And I don't think that the Texas government would have ever let that fly. So I'm disappointed but not surprised.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Um, let me see. So, okay, before any of the changes were implemented, you know, with the bill, how did you feel about the efforts to foster inclusivity on campus?
Undergraduate #3: I mean, I don't think they were perfect, but I think that they were so much better than other places. Especially coming from a PWI to Texas, I had never been around so many people of color in my life, than the first time I was on UT's campus. Growing up Nebraska, as poor immigrants and going to a PWI in the middle of Illinois; there were very little circumstances where there were people that looked like me around that weren't my family. So, I think that part of it has been a lot of the student community itself fostering these diverse and inclusive environments, like one of my biggest social outlets is the Texas Speech team. And, it's not perfect in diversity, but it's pretty good. And you know, especially like in that kind of organization, we regularly talk about diversity and inclusion. And then every single organization I've been a part of the leadership always makes a note about diversity and inclusion, and making sure everybody feels like they have a space wherever we're at. So I think that we're a lot better than a lot of other places, but it still wasn't perfect, you know. But now, it's definitely been stifled and stomped to the ground.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, I do think you have a really unique perspective with coming from out of the state, because a lot of the people that I've talked to are from Texas, so kind of how things are here, we kind of it's like, all that they know, really, especially coming from a place that is significantly less diverse than Texas is, is really, I think that's a really unique perspective to offer on the situation.
Undergraduate #3: I mean, like, the reason I had reached out in the first place, was that- I don't know, I feel like, even though I've worked really hard in my life and my resume- she does what she needs to do- I still feel like there's so much of my college experience has been shaped by DEI and affirmative action. I fully believe that, you know, the transfer acceptance rate from out of state to Texas is ridiculous. And so, the fact that I even am blessed enough to go to this university, that I'm able to afford to go to because of the speech team; it's been an interesting journey. And I'm sad that a lot of the things that have helped me get to where I'm at, won't be around for other people that need it.
Interviewer: My next question was actually: Were any UT sponsored DEI resources a part of your decision to come to UT? Which is kind of something that you've touched on.
Undergraduate #3: I mean 100% it was; it really only took one semester at Bradley University for me to know that was not the place for me. And I was a part of their Diversity and Inclusion Office program. So, I was a part of the Diversity in STEM program and the Office of Diversity and Inclusion Scholars Program. So with the STEM and Scholars programs, they were really pulling the very small population of POCs in the university, and so, it was never- I never was worried for a second that they weren't doing everything that they could and that they were going to be shut down. Granted, that was a private university as well. But, you know, even with the little support and community that they had, they still were trying their best. And so it's crazy that Texas, you know, is a huge, prestigious public university, and really can't get it together. But I had chosen to transfer to Texas because I knew that I wasn't going to continue to grow as a person, and understand why I've even had the opportunities that I've had, unless I was around less white people if I'm being really real, and you get less white people through diversity and inclusion. And I'm saying that in the sense that you have to meet people where they're at and when you don't, it's very obvious who is able to be in those spaces and who isn't.
Interviewer: Next question I have is kind of a two-parter. So you have talked about this a little bit. But the first part is, in your own opinion, why do you think SB-17 was enacted?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, I mean, I think that everybody wants to trick themselves into believing that we're in a post-racialized society. I think that a lot of the conservative Texas ideology is, "We don't see color. So we don't have to acknowledge that there used to be problems with color before." You know, and I think the key word is "used to," because it's still there. It makes sense that a lot of people that are first-gen, and a lot of people that are low income, that get the Pell Grant, that do all these things, have similar backgrounds and similar identities. So, to try to just push past, what could have been bad in the past, just makes absolutely no sense to me. So I think that SB-17 was enacted to kill that conversation, because they didn't want to do anything that maybe was even more controversial, like they saw the backlash with, CRT and Florida and stuff. And so, you know, how do you even stop conversations about CRT before they even start? Stop diversity and inclusion. So yeah, I think that it's just a very sneaky way of discriminating against people who deserve the opportunity to be in an institution like Texas.
Interviewer: Yeah, and then so the next part of this is also kind of something you mentioned on a little bit. So Brandon Creighton's whole reasoning behind the bill is that he wants to bring merit, the idea of merit, back to Texas universities for admissions decisions and stuff. Do you think that this in any way has any value or will be successful in any other aspect?
Undergraduate #3: We definitely did talk about this before, when I said that Texas wants to bring back the "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps," method. But this is not the Industrial Revolution anymore, first of all. I mean, I think that he, unfortunately, has a very popular opinion of that, and we saw that with Edward Blum. So, this is going back to the affirmative action case. So the person that basically was the mastermind behind that whole thing, he had first tried to do that in Texas, with Katy... something. And it didn't work because she was white trying to fight that she didn't get into UT because she was white, and that they let Latinos, and they shouldn't have. Then he changed the ideology to use Asian students instead. So then Asian students attacking DEI works, kind of, and I think that's exactly what people like Creighton are trying to do. He wants to believe that if you work hard enough, you can have the exact same accomplishments across the board. And that's just unfortunately not the case. And I think that this is something that I've definitely reflected on; one of my majors is Latino Studies, and we talk about these kinds of things a lot. I just think that the more that we continue to push the idea that you need to be exceptional to be heard to POC students, it's just going to lead to more and more burnout. It's seriously exhausting to feel like you have to pull yourself in a million directions to try to be enough; when you have a million more responsibilities than some other people your age. It's kind of going to do exactly what they want it to, where some people are not going to be able to do that and, you know, are personally going to choose to drop out of universities or not even go in the first place. Then the other half is explicitly what they're trying to do; to ensure that people don't even get the chance to enroll at all. I think that, looking back to what my experiences were in Nebraska, I grew up in a small town, but I had a good resume, and I was valedictorian, and all of these things. I still think that even as hard as I worked; even though I accomplished literally everything that I could there, I still think that that would never match up to somebody who grew up in like the suburbs of Dallas and had all of these opportunities and tutors and institutes. And it's not my fault that my parents were immigrants, and they didn't know how to even access those kinds of things in the first place. So yeah, I'm so disappointed. I'm so disappointed, and just sad.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Um, next, the next question that I have is kind of like, summing up all of the things that we've said generally is, what does DEI mean to you, and do you think that it's important?
Undergraduate #3: Yeah, I think that DEI is the reason I'm in college. And I don't know, that sounds kind of corny to say, but I really don't think that I would be where I'm at today, if I had not been introduced to these kinds of resources that have like, helped be a raft in what feels like the hardest years of my life. For a lot of people, college is fun, and it has been fun for me too. But that hasn't meant that I haven't experienced so much hardship in the past few years. And I think that without these organizations that have taught me to express what I'm going through, and solve it for the next person, to continue to pursue an education, to continue to help people; I think that without DEI, it's a disservice to the conversation in every single classroom. I think that having people from different backgrounds and different experiences and different identities, is what builds wise people. It's one thing to be able to memorize all these facts and spit them back out. But, to be able to actually analyze how the world around you impacts people that are not like you should be a top priority for universities. So, the fact that they're just trying to shut it down, because they're scared to talk about the real problems is embarrassing, especially for an institution like the University of Texas. As grateful as I am to go here, I think that there needs to be some change, because UT is going to look very different if there aren't different people around, you know?
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, that kind of tends to be the general sentiment that I'm hearing from the people that I'm talking to about this, that we're going to see a change and kind of, I guess, like the kinds of people that are here, even like students and faculty in the next couple of years if these things, I guess, continue. Yeah, yeah. So the last question I have for you, is kind of the crux of my project, because I'm looking at this kind of in a historical perspective. Do you think this event is important to UT's history?
Undergraduate #3: Absolutely. I think that so many things that have happened this year are going to go down in the history books, and SB-17 is definitely going to be one of them. I mean, it impacts people's not only educational aspirations, but also quality of life on campus. It's definitely going to deter people from choosing to go here in the future. And so I think that, you know, despite the press that SB-17 has received, I think that the students have done a pretty good job of standing up for what we think is right as well. And you know, whether that actually makes it to the people that we need, is a whole other conversation. But I think that Texas should think really hard about being on the right side of history. And they need to do that soon.
Interviewer: Awesome. So that was all the questions that I have for you. Is there anything else that you wanted to like, comment on or off top your head?
Undergraduate #3: I have one more thing that is important to this whole conversation. I completely forgot to say until now. When I transferred to UT, it was really hard because, obviously immigrant parents, they're going through their whole documentation process. So, they were nervous to travel to Texas, so I moved by myself, have been financially independent since I was 18. So, adulting is really hard when you're 18-19 years old, and transferring to Texas; driving like 14 hours by myself, it was crazy! I had a lot going on. And, you know, I had something bad happen to me within like two months of being in school. And so I went to the CMHC (Counciling and Mental Health Center), because I'd always done therapy as well. I hadn't thought about getting a therapist in Texas yet, but I knew that I needed to talk to somebody about what was going on with my life. And I was shocked! I was shocked when I got asked what kind of therapists I wanted, because all of my therapists had always been white women. And I felt like for the most part, one of them was able to really help me, and then the other people absolutely had no idea where I was coming from. A lot of the issues that have happened in my life are, you know, systematic, cultural issues that a lot of other people face, and we need to talk about. And so, I was nervous, it kind of felt like Build A Bear, but for a therapist. I kind of just clicked POC, whatever gender identity, sexual identity, and all that stuff. I ended up getting paired with this, also daughter of immigrants, Asian therapist, and she was seriously the best therapist I've ever had in my life, hands down. Very much saved my life my sophomore year, and then has given me the tools to continue to grow as a person and grow from what I've been through. I'm super grateful for her. She also led, I'm not gonna say her name, but a group therapy group that was called duty bound, for daughters of immigrants. It was a phenomenal therapy group. And she was so helpful. It was nice that she fostered community in something that she knew that is really hard to talk about. Like, I have not met very many daughters of immigrants in my life before coming to Texas. So I'm grateful that there was that space for us to talk about a lot of the stuff that we had gone through. I remember I was like, going through a random rough patch, and she asked me to schedule therapy. So, I was going to her therapy session, and she asked me to come not to her office, but to a different office that she had on campus. And that's when I found out that she was also part of the Asian American Studies Department; she did a bunch of work there. That's when she told me that she was actually leaving, because of SB-17; because she wouldn't be able to do things like the therapy group that I just talked about. The way that we got matched was very much like DEI inspired, and so she said that she didn't want to be here anymore, if she couldn't do the work that she set out to do when she got her education in the first place. I think that that makes so much sense, you know, but I was absolutely devastated that she was leaving because she was seriously the best therapist I've ever had in my life. I'm so sad that UT lost her as a person because I just can't imagine how much she helped other people when I only got to know her for a little over a year. So that was also really sad about DEI, and I miss her and I hope that she's doing great.
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you very much for sharing that that's so it's just so like, I don't know, disheartening is like a very, I think surface level word to use. I don't know. It's like kind of like a domino effect on people because I guess they wouldn't think about a faculty member leaving due to the bill impacting like, specific students, but like, that is something that's yeah, it builds up I guess. I'll stop the recording now.