CHRONICLING SB-17
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Interview: Undergraduate #1

This participant was a senior, now graduate, at the time of this interview. 
Interviewer: So, we're here on May 6, and I am here with Undergraduate #1, do you consent to this interview being recorded? 

Undergraduate #1: Yes. 

Interviewer: And then do you consent to having the transcript of this interview being posted online?

Undergraduate #1: Yes.

Interviewer: Awesome. So first, what organizations are you involved with on campus?

Undergraduate #1: So I was involved in three organizations, Texas Votes, Minority Women Pursuing Law, and Students Expanding Austin Literacy. Oh, and I was a Texas Student Recruiter for the Office of Admissions Access and Inclusion Team

Interviewer: So, what has changed about kind of the organization's or your job or your role within them since implementation of SB-17?

Undergraduate #1: I think the one that's been affected most obviously, is Office of Admissions. Because the team that I was a part of was exclusively DEI related. And we had to shift our recruiting demographics, on the kind of events we throw, like, put up. And then also, we no longer have an Access and Inclusion team. We're now the Austin team. So that changed a lot pretty quickly during the spring semester. It did affect like, what you wouldn't think about, it affected a lot of hours. So a lot of money that I thought I'd have saved up for the summer never happened, because we lost all the Black Excellence dinners, Latinx dinners, First Generation dinners; that was all guaranteed money that I would have made in the spring semester, because that's how I've been doing it the past two years. And so that didn't happen. When all these things were happening, hours and shifts were just very hard to come by. So it was a lot of like, waiting around to see when the next paycheck is going to be. And that was a little daunting, which is obviously not Office of Admissions' fault, because they had to figure it out too, with whatever guidelines the university is giving them. But I definitely felt like we were kind of wondering what was happening for a while. 

Interviewer: Can you elaborate a little bit on what that position specifically is?

Undergraduate #1: So the Texas Student Recruiters, pre SB-17, were basically designed to help recruit and do outreach for underrepresented students in Texas. So primarily first generation, low socioeconomic, black, brown, and Latinx students. And my job specifically was to talk to students from HISD, Central Texas, a lot of the Valley, a lot of from San Antonio, from Title One, so receiving federal funds, high schools. They would put a lot of our attention to schools that were primarily black or Hispanic or low socioeconomic. Our job would be to talk to those students, because they weren't going to do it otherwise. And giving that first step tends to help students ask questions, finally, about the college admissions process. We would do student panels for to give our experience as Latinx, first generation, black students on campus. A lot of these were highly specialized events for students in the Boys and Girls Club students in like, Texas Gear Up where we have people who try to help these students apply to college. So we would do a lot of events for those groups. And just answer genuine, real questions that the students had about what it is to  go to UT as a Latinx student, or as a Black student, or as a first generation student.

Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. So this is kind of similar to last question, but are there any specific challenges that you're encountering with these changes, kind of so like, how they affected your experience, I guess. 

Undergraduate #1: Obviously, financially, it was a huge deal. But thinking about how disheartening it is not being able to relay all the opportunities I was able to receive in the past four years. One of them being the initiatives on campus, I just thought that that was one of UT's biggest strengths. And our job is to tell students about all these things. And we had to learn that this no longer existed, this is now under this, and this is under that. Or students who knew about, let's say, Welcome Week for Black students, or the Multicultural Engagement Center; a lot of students were like, "So what do y'all have on campus?" And we were trying to figure that out ourselves, too. But, for example, I got a scholarship to pay for my LSAT. That was a huge deal to me. There's first generation study abroad scholarships, like those were all things I tell my students because it would make all their goals very tangible and very in reach. So, not being able to share those resources because they're no longer there was a really disheartening part of the job. A big part of the fulfillment of this job was being able to help people reach their goals with the resources we have on campus. 

Interviewer: So the next question that I have is a little bit different. So I, you've probably read the bill. So kind of like, when it first came out, how did you understand SB-17? And like, what the how it would be implemented on campus. And like, what it would cover and then like, if you've read the bill, was it easy to understand, like one of the language looked like kind of things like that.

Undergraduate #1: So, I got in a skirmish with my groupmate, because she was trying to explain that we couldn't do something in a project because of SB-17. And then I actually read through it. And I think what a lot of people, there's like a lot of misconceptions that like, maybe the President had a direct say in how it was happening. But the law very much states that- people don't understand how UT is funded sometimes, I think, and UT gets a lot of money from the state. We are a state school. Because of our prestige, I think people forget that. And they think we're like a public ivy or something. But we're very much still in control of the state. So a lot of the money comes from the state. And a lot of the language says that if these programs receive state funding, or from the UT funding, that is still state money, you can't do it. And I think a lot of people don't understand how the money works, which is what made the language very important for me to understand. So, when I would look at events, and let's say that someone wanted to host something by themselves, and someone says "You can't do that, because of SB-17!" It's your money, not the schools. So I think that was something that I paid very much attention to. Because that's when I started thinking about, "Okay, MEC is gone, this is gone, this is gone. But this organization, because it's being funded by something else, is still going to be a thing." So that is how I was able to predict a lot of the closures and a lot of how things would change on campus, based on where the money goes. 

Interviewer: So, along those lines, the next question that I have is related to the the DCCE, which was formerly DDCE, how it was recent major decision for it to close. Why do you think that this division was included in the compliance with SB-17? And what do you think it means for our community now that it's going to be shut down?

Undergraduate #1: I think that the DDCE was a huge part of minority student culture, it was very much the lifeline for a lot of us who wanted sanctuary on campus. And like, I experienced a lot of benefits from them, like them paying for my grad school class. Same with my partner, and a lot of my friends who found refuge in their organizations they have, the staff that they have just for us and the space that they have. I think that a lot of UT money did go to that. So it was a very easy one to spot right away. I mean, it has space on campus, it runs a lot of programs. Granted, these orgs were registered as their own, but they were receiving direct funding the entire time they were existing. And I think that's why it's just an easy, easy thing to spot for the state. You look at, okay, well, I want to target these specific things that do something for black students, that do something for Latinx students, and then you see a whole department that does everything. I would understand how that was the easiest target in the whole SB-17 anti-DEI bill.

Interviewer: Yeah. And do you see anything for our campus community? Like I guess it's kind of hard to predict what exactly is going to happen. But do you see anything right now that you feel is already in effect with the closure? I guess like how it's impacting the community

Undergraduate #1: So I think one of the biggest things is the decision to close DDCE that housed all the Latinx, Black graduation, Lavender graduation, GraduAsian, the Monarch. That's a really big deal. Because not so long ago, we couldn't even come to the school. I think people forget how not long ago that was, and it's a beautiful thing to celebrate these things. And it almost feels like you're taking away that recognition. And I do feel like currently, the seniors are feeling that; who are undocumented, who are first-gen, who are Asian, who are black, or Hispanic/Latinx. Like, that felt like a direct attack on the legacy that we're continuing. And the work we did to get here and stay here, I think is what people don't realize. You can get into UT. But whether or not you retain at UT is a very big deal. And that's what a lot of these programs were for, was to help these students stay in. I know from the admission side there's a lot of efforts to get students in and I know that there's a lot of success in that. But once they get in, they're on their own for the next four years. I felt that there was comfort with the DDCE because they were helping these students academically, socially; it's not easy coming from hometowns that are primarily your people, your community, and then coming to school like UT. That it's no secret; predominantly white institution and PWI. And these were very grounding spaces, so that you can focus on academics. I don't know if that answered the question. 

Interviewer: I think so because I don't know, it's kind of it. Like I said, it's hard to predict what's going to happen. But it's, you can look at kind of what the division has done for the community and just kind of see like, what these things aren't going to be in place anymore. So there's kind of a, it's up in the air.

Undergraduate #1: I think that it's definitely going to affect students who want to do grad school, for sure. Although we have all the resources at UT, it might not seem like common sense to find them. And a lot of what DDCE did is help future doctors, future PhD candidates, future attorneys, any kind of grad school route, there was guidance through DDCE to get you to the resources that are on campus. So I do feel like in the next, in this cohort of four year students, there's going to be people who are lost. Because a lot of these things that we're there to help them are no longer. Studying abroad, there's probably going to be a lot less black and brown students and first-gen students going abroad, because the DDCE funded a lot of that. Texas Global is kind of hard to navigate already, so I can imagine that there's going to be a lot of students who are too afraid to embark on that whole journey and process, and are not going to study abroad. The grad school for sure is going to be a thing. I think that students aren't going to be bold enough to join honors programs, or these very difficult orgs to be in, because there's no one to give them that confidence that they need, which I think the DDCE and MEC offered; a whole, "You got this, you can do it!" And that will affect not just the incoming kids, but the current ones too. So, our freshmen or sophomores and our juniors.

Interviewer: Let me see what's next. So, before any of these changes were implemented with SB-17. How did you feel about the efforts to foster inclusivity on campus?

Undergraduate #1: I honestly was very proud of what we had. I felt like coming to UT, I was able to find refuge with our ethnic studies departments like Latinx Studies, Asian American Studies, Black Studies/African Diaspora, the MEC and the DDCE and the Longhorn Center for Academic Equity. I always felt like someone had my back on campus. And to have like to have that feeling that someone has your back or someone is there to advocate for you. It's a very powerful feeling to have, when you feel like you're already years behind in academics compared to your counterparts. Those who came from very wealthy high schools, who have parents in the fields that they want to do, who have generations and generations of college educated family members. All that can be pretty daunting and overwhelming your first couple of weeks on campus. And when it hits you how behind you are, it could be a very either dismantling experience, and you give up, or it fuels you. I think that these communities on campus were to push you to keep doing it, instead of feeling disheartened. 

Undergraduate #1: I felt like, without, number one, my admissions counselor would not let me not apply for Liberal Arts Honors. And I told her "No," multiple times, because I felt like I couldn't hack it. I felt that I would be an outlier; I'd be behind. And she had told me "Okay, one more time, I'm going to take you to coffee, we're going to talk about Plan II and LAH one more time, I'll never bring it up." And she convinced me. I applied, I got in, and I truly believe that that changed my life trajectory. I think that I would never have been as academically competitive, I would have never received my tuition scholarship, I would have never studied abroad, I don't think I would have gotten into my law school if it wasn't for the admissions team. Already I felt like someone had my back, and that was when I was applying in June 2019. Now looking at 2024, I felt that there was always people who had my best interest, who told me what to apply for, and when, what to do, what not to do, who to talk to, who to avoid. And those were things that I found through the inclusivity initiatives that UT already had on campus. And the classes that they were willing to allow faculty to teach like our Black studies or Latinx studies. I think that also is a big part of initiative, but it's not technically under the perview of DDCE. But I do think those classes are just as important because you bring all these students in together, who come from similar backgrounds, and we're able to share all these initiatives together too. That's what made UT so good at promoting initiatives because not only did they do it in a big scheme, they were able to train their students to share with others. And in the past four years, I've definitely seen it work, 100%, and help others either through me or through other people, and professors too. 

Interviewer: Were any of these UT sponsored DEI resources specifically a part of your decision to come to UT?

Undergraduate #1: Okay, let's think back to 2019. I think a lot of coming to UT was the city, and also getting into law school. I didn't know specifically of the DEI initiatives until November of 2019, when I came to campus, and the Texas Student Recruiters at my event told me about all the things on campus to join. So I learned about the Minority Women Pre-Law org through the TSRs, I learned about the Multicultural Engagement Center, the advisors on campus, and the Longhorn Center for Academic Equity. So it almost just solidified if anything, my choice to go to UT, because I knew that it was a PWI. And I knew that it was going to be hard. And I knew that I wouldn't be the most competitive person in the room anymore. Dealing with people who have everything, when you're just starting out, would have been really daunting. But I felt from that point in time, at that UT dinner that I went to, that I was going to have a group that had my back the entire time. And for people who didn't know about these resources, I feel like it would have made their decision a lot easier if they did.

Interviewer: Okay, this one is kind of, I think, like, there's a lot to unpack here. So, in your opinion, why do you think SB-17 was enacted?

Undergraduate #1: So, the language is to make it fair for all students. I've taken my fair share of Black Studies and Latino Studies classes to know that that's not true. And I believe, personally, and this has nothing to do with my elitism, that UT is the best school in Texas, and UT is on a very international stage, we are a flagship school. And we're the most powerful campus in the state. I don't believe SB-17 was meant for all schools, it was meant for UT. And because UT was becoming very diverse, on such a grand scale of international politics; we have Truman scholars, we have Nobel Peace Prize winners; like you have to be able to control this cash cow of research and competitive job markets. I felt that the state was losing its grip on that, and they felt that there was a lot of competing interests instead of their own. That could be a reason why SB-17 was implemented. Maybe they just wanted it to be fair. I don't know what fair means to them. I also do believe that they think that we were helping too many minority students get a fair grounding. I don't believe UT is an equal playing field. I knew that since I started. I knew that the first day I had my LAH class that everyone was already ahead of me. And it wasn't my fault. It wasn't my parents fault that I went to the school that I went to; that's just life. And it was through these organizations and initiatives, that I was able to gain a competitive advantage, because they taught me how to do the things that other students already knew how to do. Other students already knew when to take the LSAT; I didn't know that. And they had my back on that and introducing me to all these initiatives on campus, who really were just trying to get me on equal footing, not necessarily put me above others. And I think that's what the state sometimes misconstrues in their language. I don't think these initiatives are meant to put people above other students. They're just trying to make it as much of an equal playing field as possible. Because there are decades and decades of inequalities within the black and brown communities that still need to be remedied. And I think that the numbers show that. And these initiatives are just trying to help pave whatever an equal playing field they can at UT. Even though we know there are kids who have very, very privileged backgrounds, which is not their fault, but it's hard for other students to match that when they don't have those resources. And that's what these initiatives are for, to give them an equal fighting chance and an equal footing the day they step on campus.

Interviewer: I kind of have a second part to this question. So Senator Brandon Creighton is the one who authored the bill and the word that he would use what is bringing merit back to higher education in Texas. So do you think that allowing this merit to determine admissions decisions and other things will be successful at all in promoting fairness?

Undergraduate #1: So, in my high school, I wasn't the smartest student. There were a lot of geniuses in my class that just were legitimately poverty line, like this kid had shoes that were tearing apart, because he just couldn't afford new ones. But he was a genius. And I think that the difference between him and I is that Mom and Dad helped me with college apps, Mom and Dad went to college already. They knew that I should be focusing on grades, and this and that; he was barely making it through four years of high school with whatever his parents could scrounge by on. I don't think me getting in necessarily makes me smarter than him. And if this is truly merit based, he would have gotten in, just as much as any kid from Dallas, or the nicer parts of Austin, Houston. Keeping that in mind, if everyone had the same opportunities, then yeah, in theory, merit based is great. Is that the case? I don't think so. I think that my job as an admissions student was to make it merit based, so that everyone had the same starting point to compete. I think it's important to be a competitive applicant. But I also believe it's important to be a fair competitive applicant. And that was what a lot of these initiatives are for, a lot of the admissions initiatives were to help people who were very, very, very smart; very competitive, could probably kill in Cockrell School of Engineering; they just needed help to learn how they work. To learn how the SAT works, learn how to send your transcripts; all that is very hard. And just the basic concept of doing college apps is the number one factor of high school kids not wanting to go to UT, because it's just a lot of work and a lot of money and a lot of time. And if you don't know what you're doing, it's probably the most daunting experience versus other students who are very smart, equally capable, they're gonna get in because they already know how to do all this stuff, if their parents have gone through it, or they're just come from a more affluent background. So the whole idea of merit, I agree we should have merit. But we should have equal footing to judge whatever it is.

Interviewer: So my next question that I have second to last here, we have two more. What does the Diversity Equity inclusion mean to you? And do you think that it's important?

Undergraduate #1: I think it's equal footing, I think it's having an as much as an equal playing field as possible at UT. And without it, it's not merit based, it's whoever has the resources, by default with their parents or at home, or whatever, will be the most competitive. And that's the way it is. And I think it's unfortunate. But these initiatives, and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, were to help students who are first-gen, black and brown, low socioeconomic backgrounds gain, not even an edge, because that's to say, like they're getting a competitive advantage. They're just trying to get on the same playing field as every other student at UT. Like, for example, the Heman Sweatt Initiative, or the Fearless Leadership Institute, the program that they have when they send students to Dubai in China, so they learned to become global citizens. All that is so incredibly important to help these students realize that this is a thing they could do; a reality that's possible. Because if all these students don't realize the importance of the hard work, they're doing: working part time, balancing classes, helping with home; all that doesn't seem worth it. And that's not fair to that student who is equally as competitive as someone who has school taken care of, doesn't have to work, can do unpaid internships in the summer that look great on their applications. That's what these initiatives do. They help fund students, they help show students how things are once you reach those goals, and kind of keep them on their track. I talked about retention, a lot of DEI is just to retain these students who are able to get in and could probably get into better grad school programs, who could probably get into these competitive jobs. They just need someone and tell them you can keep doing it. Maybe I'll help you with like this unpaid internship scholarship application or whatever, we'll have you have a mentor, you'll be in these first gen initiatives. Someone will always be telling you what to do these next four years. All that is important to make sure they don't lose faith, be disheartened and just stop. You know what I mean? And that's what DEI does. It helps people be on the same playing field to reach their goals, which I do believe that is true merit. When everyone is on the same playing field. That's when we can see people's true capabilities, instead of students who miss out on discussion posts, or have absences because they're working late, they got home late, they're tired, they're burnt out. That is not merit, because it's not a fair playing field, to compete with other students who don't have to work, who can travel and go abroad as much as they like, and do these competitive programs in Prague. That's not the same for a student who has to pick a country that's cheaper, and not do something as cool as that on their resume, or maybe do Archer or something like that. And that's what DEI does, it allows the students to make the same choices and more affluent students do.

Undergraduate #1: As someone who said "No," to a lot of things, DEI definitely helped me study abroad, do a thesis, do a lot of unpaid internships. I don't think I would have been as confident in myself the past four years, if I didn't have all these initiatives pushing me forward. When I was starting at UT, it felt like a complete wake up call. And I felt that no matter how much work I did, I would never compete with those Liberal Arts Honors students from Dallas, or from Austin, or from Houston, you had these really great high school IB/AP programs. We were barely learning how to write English papers in my high school. So, I already felt behind. And if it wasn't for these initiatives that had faith in me, that told me how to do things that told me when to do things that I felt like I have a grip on the next four years of my life, and I will roll with it. And I think that's why it's so important. For me, who has already two college educated parents, that was really important. I can't even imagine how critical and helpful that is for first-gen students and people who are barely making it by with financial aid and working jobs to have that support system. It's definitely important. It definitely helps allow students to go to this flagship of a school on somewhat of an equal playing field.

Interviewer: My last question that I have is kind of the crux of this whole project. Because I'm contextualizing this event within how UT has historically handled kind of things similar to this. Do you think that this event is important to UT's history?

Undergraduate #1: I think it is. Because if you look at the growing demographics of the state, it's almost too convenient that this happened when Latinos are becoming the biggest demographic in the state of Texas pretty rapidly. It is no mistake that UT is on a really big stage right now, in the world, in the country, that this school is receiving so much attention. We just got so many 73,000 applications this year, for admissions for undergrad, that doesn't include the grad programs we have on campus. I think that this is going to be a very pivotal point in how we're going to maintain the prestige of this campus, but also the diversity of thought and experience that we had been working to maintain prior to SB-17. And SB-17, I wouldn't call it a stopping point, but it's a wake up call. I think for me as a student seeing it, and for the staff at UT that were doing something great; there are people who don't necessarily agree with it. This is a true testament that we're definitely reaching the goals we already had, and that there's someone who doesn't necessarily agree with the the wide range of ideas, initiatives, and goals that we're hitting as a school. Because we are. I think as SB-17 shows that we're hitting our goals of diversifying our school and doing amazing things as a campus. 

Interviewer: That's all the questions I have for you. Do you have anything else that you want to talk about? Comment on anything? 

Undergraduate #1: I think for me, when the whole anti-DEI thing happened, one of the most personal plights I felt was just the fact that like the Texas Student Recruiters as a group reached out to me, because they felt like a lot of students from my high school wanted to go to UT but they weren't necessarily getting the attention to go to school at UT. But the only reason why I was identified was because I'm Latinx, and because I'm from a Title One school. Ever since SB-17 was implemented, we can't technically work by Latinx, Black, and Brown students anymore. Now it's pretty much was just income based. Both my parents are educators, so I was pretty much in the middle class. So, I felt like we were wiping out a decent chunk of students like me, who could need the mentorship but no longer are gonna get it, which is disheartening because I felt like it was only through admissions and TSRs that I was able to come here and do the great things that I did. And we're missing out on the students who have the courage to do it. Because now we're just focusing on socioeconomics rather than ethnicity and race as a whole. I think that is going to be very interesting to see how demographics and income brackets shift, post SB-17 admission cycle. I think we're barely gonna see our incoming class in the fall. So that's going to be something to look at too, and think about how applications are going to start changing to UT. 

Interviewer: Thank you very much. I will stop this recording. 
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